councilofdragons.myfastforum.org

[Rangudran]

I know Varis posted something about loot distribution systems but I can't find it!

Several people have told me it is important to have a loot distribution system in place before we start raiding.  Apparently many guilds use a "Dragon Kill Points" (DKP) system.  Thing is, it's difficult for me to get motivated about the administrative overhead of a DKP system without first-hand experience of the problems you get from the random roll system we have been using in 5-mans.  I'm guessing this is because we  have generous and mature players.  

I lost the link, but I found a nice 20-page article on loot systems written by Angelie.   The standard "fixed-price DKP" seems like a nightmare to apply and the inflation/DKP gap between hard-core and new or casual players seems like a cure that is worse than the disease.  But look at this explanation of the Suicide Kings system:
 
http://www.shadowlords-gorefiend.com/web/mods/SuicideKings.swf

I like the simplicity of the Suicide Kings method (it looks very easy to implement with the add-on) but I don't like that you can't award points for guild events or showing up on time, or "learning runs" where you wipe a dozen times but no gear drops.  The next easiest - "Spend-All" makes it too discouraging to get a minor gear upgrade.  So my favorite of the options is the "One-more" system described by Angelie below:

[Wulfgor]

I'll give this a read and see if there is anything that I can administrate for you

Wulfgor

[varissul]

I did post about this, but I posted it in the area where we were talking about Karazhan.

Many guilds do not use a loot distribution system for Kara. It is only a 10-man and if we can't get along and decide who should get what, then what's the point? I can see having a loot system established for when we start doing the 25-mans and beyond (oh, god!) and I think by that time, we'll all be well-geared enough to understand it is needed.

Wulf, if you can make heads or tails of this thing Rang posted, I give you full power to implement it. I think we should at least begin to collect points for those who've already started to do Kara, but I'd still like to see the loot of Kara be done like we did it last night.

And, Rang, about that chestpiece you picked up....

I believe it is for a dps warrior and the only dps warrior we have is Volan... so why not give it to him? I think it would be a nice addition to his armor now and help him to become the dps warrior we need.
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"Don't wait until everything is just right. It will never be perfect.  (Mark Victor Hansen).

[Cabanarama]

This is how my guild does it. It's simple.

We use group loot in Karazhan. We all pass on the boss loot. Raid leader links the first item to be rolled for and if anybody needs that item, /roll for it in the chat. Highest roll wins, winner goes and picks up the item. Same deal with the second item and the tier 4 tokens. Also the same deal with the BoP epics that drop off of trash mobs.

For recipes that drop in there, the people that can view it pass on it and whoever the guild crafter is for that particular recipe gets first dibs. If the guild crafter isn't present, then whoever can train it on the spot /rolls for it and the winner picks it up and must train it on the spot.

For 25 mans, we use a DKP system called Suicide Kings. "DKP" is actually called EPGP, but the concept's the same. You gain DKP through your participation (being in the group from the time you begin through to the time you end, bonus for being on-time, bonus for downing a boss and bonus for downing a boss on farm status). It's a fair system (why should Raider B get [Phat Purple] if Raider A's been there more often than Raider B?)

[varissul]

How do healers earn extra points in this system? We don't pull bosses, all we do is heal? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but if we are going to become a "hard-core" raiding guild, I'll be sitting on the sidelines anyway, do heroics and joining in when I can. I guess I'll be one of those "Raider B"s.
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"Don't wait until everything is just right. It will never be perfect.  (Mark Victor Hansen).

[Rangudran]

Yes, you're reading too much into it. You get credit for the boss if you were in the party that killed it, not the one character that landed the killing blow.

Cabanara's system sounds like the Spend-All DKP system in Angelie's paper. In a pure Suicide Kings system, no points are awarded for anything. You move up when something drops and someone suicides -period dot. So I like Cab's system better. Maybe "One More" is a slight improvement but either one is fine, or none like Varis said.

Regarding the chest piece, I couldn't roll need in good faith since I don't usually DPS and honestly the 900g avg sale price seems more attractive. I will give it to the guild bank. Personally I think we should sell it and split the proceeds with everyone in the raid to help cover repair costs and expendables but I'll leave that up to Varis.

[varissul]

I appreciate all the hard work Rangudran has put into this. I'm glad it wasn't me who had to research it.

On the topic of the chestpiece; I want everyone in the raid to know the guild bank moneys are their for the members of the raid to help cover repair costs if you cannot afford it. If you cannot afford to raid, then I don't think you should be raiding.

In the thread http://councilofdragons.myfastforum.org/about232.html, I posted the questions one needs to ask themself before taking on raiding. I don't know how many people read it, but, to me, it makes sense.

I sent the chestpiece to Volan, our only dps warrior to date. If we truly are trying to become a "raiding" guild, then shouldn't we be outfitting all of our guildmembers, even those who have not yet gotten the chance to go? I told him how much it was worth (on our server) but did not ask him for any gold in return. If anyone, and I mean -- ANYONE -- has an issue with this, please post it here or contact me in game and I will see you are compensated.
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"Don't wait until everything is just right. It will never be perfect.  (Mark Victor Hansen).

[Rangudran]

There was a discussion of loot in guild chat last night which reminded me of the urgency of putting this matter to rest. Please read this so that you can help us make an informed decision and place your vote.

http://www.signumcrucis.org/Guides/Guild_Loot_Distribution_Systems.pdf

With our current group of mature and generous players, passing on BoE's and rolling if needed has worked well. Our first complaint was during yesterday's Bot run. As we grow in numbers or run with guests, I could see a need to switch to Loot Master for 5 and 10-mans, but still use the random method for distribution. If you have a special need, make it known before the run and the group can decide how to roll for that item if it comes up.

My preference for larger raids is "Spend-All" (starting with Suicide Kings since that is easier to administer and refining to Spend-All after we get used to Suicide Kings).

[Bahmaat]

*looks over the document*

Ick. If there is one thing that is bound to create much unnecessary drama, it's DKP systems. I'm more in favour of letting things stand as is right now - I quibble considerably with the underlying premise of the DKP system - that it is somehow inherently unfair of a "newbie" winning a /roll for a rare drop over the regular who runs the instance daily. The latter is far more likely to have much better resources as a whole than the "newbie" - especially now that badges drop from bosses (the regular will accumulate badges far faster than the occasional instance runner). DKP systems also inherently skew towards guild-only parties since non-guilders will tend to be more of the "newbie" (read: low/no DKP) and not "regulars". Hard to find an emergency healer replacement if that person knows they have zero chance at any good drops.

That said I guess I'm not really able to discuss the relative merits of one DKP system over another but since I'm the perennial "newbie" (not really liking doing instances over and over again, preferring seeing new things to the loot they drop), and playing a class that has very little good dropped purples available, my opinion shouldn't count for much.

[Wulfgor]

I have research the DKP issue and at this point “do not think we should go to one”.
As a mature guild I think we can settle things on the spot using a set list of priorities (see below for my list). If and when we move beyond the 10-person raids, we probably should have a DKP. By using this list as a guide, a raid leader can quickly decide who should get an item.

My priority list (in order)
1. Items should go to the class and type (tank, healer) that can use the item best
2. Assigned in a way to make the guild stronger for future raids
3. A person that has done more runs then another
4. Long standing guild loyalty (this may cause some people issues, sorry)

We should do what is best for the guild and not think individually (example: giving the chest armour to Volan even though he was not in the raid). I like to think of us as a family that works to help each other out, so we can all get the most out of the game.

Maybe everyone can submit a list of the items they are looking for (in order of priority) and I can administrate it on the website.

Whatever is decided by the guild I will support it and administrate it if need be.

Note: This has been a hard one for me; a very difficult subject. Since I have only been on one short raid (no boss kill), I find it hard to comment on this issue.

Wulfgor

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